It's awesome to see the amount of planning that seems to be going into the next protest, and I think it's really going to show on the day - but only if we get some clear goals for the day set in stone. This'll give us something clear to aim towards when we're designing flyers, banners, etc.

We need to be realistic, too, though.

Here's my $0.02:

Goals:

. Educate the public. I honestly believe that the biggest 'wins' for Anonymous are the people who walk away from our protest, with a flyer tucked into their pocket and a troubled conscience. The fact that we enlightened people who literally knew *nothing* about the Co$ was a major achievement. It's one less potential victim for the cult, as well as one more potential V mask at the next gathering.

How we do this... well, we've been doing an amazing job so far - but I'm sure we'll come up with ever-more-inventive ways of getting our message across.

. Get attention. Television, newspapers, radio - anything. The purpose is threefold:

The more people hearing the name 'Anonymous', whether it's a full write-up or just a small nib, the more potential members of the public to align themselves with us.

Those already opposed to the 'church' will see a safe haven of dissent, and a veritable army of like-minded individuals to unite with. Those who were afraid of facing the wall of lawyers will see a way out.

It'll piss the Scientologists off no end! kekekekekekekeke
(also, when they're pissed off, they make stupid moves. woop!)

How we get attention, though, is important. I've already voiced my objections to the 'party' theme that went down last time, but that's a seperate debate; what we need to be working on is the overall image the brum_anon wants to present. This will be the deciding factor in how we make an impression on this city.

. Help those in need. Call it cheesy, but think about it. Someone has desperately wanted to leave the 'church' for quite some time, but feels unable to do so; perhaps they're scared, or worried about how their 'superiors' may react. After all, who wants to become fair game?

We can help them.

The problem many have faced in the past with regard to facing down the cult is that nobody is on their side. That they're alone. This isn't true any more, because of us. If they're harassed, we can make it so public that the $cifags will feel it in their teeth. Soon, Anonymous will be seen as a viable 'fire exit' from the cult, and the Co$ will realise what it's dealing with.

Trouble is, making this known...

--

Those are what I'd label as the three most important aims for our protests, and I think we can achieve them too, if we get enough focus and work in beforehand. You'll notice, though, I'm sure, that I didn't include anything about 'bringing down the Church of Scientology' - despite the fact that this is generally regarded as the ambition of Anonymous as a whole.

I'm a realist. A protest group is not going to eradicate the Co$, quite simply. Protest groups don't achieve anything by way of altering government legislation, much less do they ever come close to actually destroying an institution outright. The only real 'successful' protests of late have been the 'fuel tax' lorry driver blockade, and Jamie Oliver's campaign for better school dinners. And they had very little effect on the nation at all.

If our aim is to abolish the Co$ in the U.K, then that is not going to happen.

If our aim is to in any way prevent them from carrying out their own incentives in the U.K, then that is not going to happen.

If our aim is to in any way prevent it from becoming a religion in the U.K, then that is not going to happen.

If the government took any notice of pressure groups, then the millions that turned up to the 'Don't Attack Iraq' protests would have had some effect on Blair's decision. But it didn't. The few thousand demonstrating in the U.K won't have a damn effect on this at all.

The goal, in my opinion, should be the public. Sure, we can't stop the $cifags from building their 'church' in Moseley - but we can stop the families in the area from ever even letting their friends and family go near there. We can get petitions signed to limit their offers of 'stress tests' in the town, and we can get massive awareness campaigns as to what this new 'church' represents going.

In short? We need to look to the people, not the powers that be.

Exactly...

Brilliant goals!

Why, thankyou.

We should also focus on reaching out to the scientologists. Especially the ones who are becoming doubtful or those who are not yet completely indoctrinated.

Also, remember: Every time someone leaves, Scientology loses money and free labour. If we can reach out to their "staff members", and get them to wake up, we have already won.

Afterall, no matter how powerful Scientology is, even the tallest monoliths can come crashing down if the foundation crumbles....

I'm not sure if Scientologists want to be reached out to. It's a valid life choice for a lot of them, and one that confers a lot of benefits in certain circles. Trying to get them to drop it would be akin to me asking an anon to drop the protest and go become a Scientologist. Not going to happen.

But, for those who genuinely want out, but can't:

I stand by this. ^^

I agree with the aims you've set out, and that "bringing down the CoS" isn't really a valid aim, or at least not a useful one.

however I disagree with all the examples you gave of things we can't do.

it is quite possible that we may get the 'church' in mosely stopped.

it's quite possible that it is prevented from gaining more religious status/tax exempt status (not that it pays any anyway), although that would be an anonymous as a whole thing dragging up proof of it's behaviour, but it would be UK anons bringing that to the attention of the government.


I think that stopping the 'church' in mosely is a valid aim, and although it's reaching a bit far, it's possible, and even if we don't succeed, we will certainly have inoculated many people in the area against their wiles.

the second 'quite possible' thing I just mentioned is not really a useful aim for us to think about at the moment, except for the signing of petitions and whatnot when they come up.
maybe if a proper concerted plan comes up at some point then there will be things for us to do.


I think another aim to add, alongside the educating the public one, if educating the people in authority. council people, MPs, police people, school associations, etc.
the scilons have two main recruitment routes: getting the public into the shop, and getting people in via their front schemes (which are in schools, prisons, business circles, and the sort of things that use ambitious political types to double-jump off). we would be silly to only address one of them.


tl;dr: stopping the 'church' in mosely is doable, or at least something we should reach for
as well as edumacating public, we should inform politicos/administrators/businesspeople etc. of the ways the CoS will try and manipulate them.

No. They have every right to practice their faith in Moseley; they have every right to open a building with which they can do so. In principle, the Church of Scientology in Moseley could easily do their wacky dianetics in peace, making their members fully aware of the financial committment, and letting those interested know exactly represents and does. They may not adhere to the 'fair game' policy, and they may be fully open to the Moseley council about their operations in the area.

Obviously, this won't happen. But in principle, it could - and if we act out of predjudice, in a 'guilty until proven innocent' sense, then we effectively become the Church of Anonymous, denying their right to practice their faith based on the actions of others. It would be akin to stopping a Mosque from opening, because of the actions of Jihadist cults.

This leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, and I'm pretty sure most of you won't agree with this. But one of the phrases I kept repeating to the public on Saturday is that: "We're not protesting against the beliefs of Scientology; we're protesting against their actions."

Well, anons, if we stop them from opening this 'church' before they've even had a chance to demonstrate these actions, we're becoming the oppressors they want to portray us as. Yes, Scientology is responsible for deaths across the world, but we can't say that about their branch in Moseley, because they don't exist yet.

This won't stop us from acting. We can make the people of Moseley fully aware of the consequences and dangers of joining the cult, and let the police/council in the area know exactly who they're dealing with. As J.B said:

If nobody trusts the cult, and nobody joins the cult, because of our awareness campaigns, then they will fail and go play with thetans elsewhere. We can do this. I wholeheartedly believe that, with the right facts, nobody in their right mind would touch the cult with a bargepole. We can give them these facts.

Of course, as with the example before, if a Mosque were built and then they were found to be harbouring terrorists, and building bombs, then of course something would be done. In the same way, if we find out that the Co$ in Moseley have been harassing critics, decieving their members, etc, then of course we will act. We'll do what we've been doing before.

But unless we want to threaten our ideological high ground, we can't stop them from building this 'church'.

here, here. I concur.

I agree with most of what you're saying Co$play, however I think you're mistaken in comparing the orgs of the scilons with churches and mosques in the traditional sense.

the CoS is a centralised organisation that dictates policy worldwide, and all staff and sea org people follow orders from above to the letter.
this isn't a new congregation of scientologists setting up in mosely, this is another recruitment centre to get more people into the cult, and embroiled in the pyramid scheme.

this 'church' opening up is just another digit on the hand of the birmingham CoS, which is a hand on the british arm.

this place will be the same people at the ethel st org, and will take the same orders from the same people higher up, it's just they'll have somewhere else to put "free stress test" signs outside, and access to a whole community rather than just people out shopping in the city centre.


we know that the CoS in britain has nowhere near the amount of members they say they have, they aren't opening this new 'church' to accommodate their 'parishioners', it's purely to expand their recruitment programme, and that is what we want to stop.

this place is probably going to be one of their shop places, which is literally like a shop with books to sell, 'personality tests', an e-meter for the 'stress test' thing, and lots and lots of ways for you to pay.
people won't go there to take courses or have auditing done, which is what makes up practicing this 'religion', that will be done at ethel st (or elsewhere in the country, they often have people traveling about for courses).


it is within the power of the council and the community of mosely to stop certain businesses opening offices there. they couldn't do so for religious reasons, but remember, we aren't protesting the cult for religious reasons.
so we educate the people that will be affected, and we make sure their representatives who can make a difference hear about it!

Evidence? From what I've seen, there seem to be substantial differences between different branches.

That's fine. If they're not decieving, harassing or hurting anyone then we should leave them alone. If we don't, then we're purely going on the offensive on the basis of: "You are Scientologists. We hate Scientologists. We will harass you." - which is entirely contrary, as I've said, to our maxim of 'religious freedom'. We have to adhere to the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty', else we're, again, going to become the Church of Anonymous.

We can go two ways, in my opinion:

1. Demonstate against the 'church' in Moseley, despite the fact that they have not negatively influenced any of the Moseley community. In doing so, yes, we stop them before they can do anything bad - but at the cost of our assertion to religious freedom. We can't yell: "Do we believe in freedom of religion?" if we act preemptively in such a way.

Personally, I think it's dubious as to whether we can 'stop' their building from being put up, but that's a seperate debate. I don't know enough about property law to yay/nay that.

2. We prepare. We make sure as many people in Moseley as possible know the facts, and encourage them to be wary of this dangerous cult opening in their area. This way, the second the $cifags put a toe out of line...

...we can say: "Told you so!" and whip out the V masks. We have the community behind us, and more importantly, nobody can say that we aren't just in our judgement. We gave them the chance they were due, the freedom of religion, but they wrecked it, so they feel the pain. Simple.

Which is it going to be, anon?

the many stories of people having to follow orders, the almost universal tactics and phraseology used whenever scilons spew PR. the identical, and quite obviously bollocks press release sent out at every single protest on the 10th.
scilon guy put his kids out there to try and rile up the crowd, others did the same elsewhere in the world. there were leaks from the meetings where they were told to do this.

every single time they go out on the street and ask someone if they want a free stress test, they're deceiving. every person they rope in is put in the position where they are very likely to be hurt at some point.

every penny they earn goes into the coffers of the corrupt leadership, to fuel the crimes that we are protesting, and step up recruitment.

the CoS is not a church, it is a business. by setting up shop somewhere and calling it a church they're deceiving.


if these are your feelings on it, why do you protest outside the org in ethel street? why do anything except sign petitions about it's tax status?


the only scientologist practices that are protected are people wanting to be audited and take the courses and whatnot.
the organisation forcing them to pay through the nose for it is not protected, and this new building will most probably have nothing to do with that, but just be a shop window, as it were.

it is every scilons standing orders to get people into the cult and therefore get their money. if you consider that part of their religious beliefs and protected, then what on earth are you protesting?


we can take the route of trying to stop them setting up in the first place without compromising our freedom of religion stance, because the only part of scientology that will be affected by the opening of this new 'church' is their recruitment, which we are already trying to stop.


anyway, I also doubt whether we could actually stop the 'church' opening, but we can certainly try, and not pull any punches.

it won't make much of a difference to our actual activities except the timing, and that we'll be contacting council people and getting petitions more if we're trying to stop it.

We're going round and round in circles here. I think what I'm saying is logical; there's not much more I can do or say to demonstate my stance on this.

I think what you're saying is based on a lack of understanding of how the cult actually works.
i'm not an expert, but my understanding has come from reading reports from inside and accounts of their actions and tactics from outside points of view.
it all points towards what i've been saying about this new 'church' having nothing to do with their religious beliefs, but purely being a recruitment centre.


anyway, I think we've traumatised people enough. it's not a decision that has to be made, but rather a point of principle, or something.


any comments from other people on that lengthy exchange?

I don't think there is anything wrong with protesting against the moseley centre before it has been bought/opened; i dont see much difference from people protesting against a nuclear power plant being built, even if its hundreds of miles away because the protesters are on principle opposed to nuclear power.

No anon here is opposed to their beliefs. We are opposed to them recruiting people into a business/pyramid scheme under the pretence of a church; they aren't opening the centre to provide a more local building, they are opening it to recruit more people and fulfill David Miscavige's grandiose claims to a perpetually expanding organization.

Basically, we are protesting against an organization that has been convicted multiple times in multiple countries of fraud and abuse of its members from opening up in moseley; thats it.

It doesn't matter that the org will be 'new', it's still the same old CoS behind it all, doing the same old things.