It's been a while since I last posted here, I was going through some old emails and found my original sign-up confirmation so I thought I'd pop in and see how things were going.

But on to the question, it's pretty much the same one I posed on the IRC during my one and possibly only visit AFAIR. Why bother with trying to get Scientology wiped off the face of the Earth?

I understand the arguments about some of the shitty things they've done, but as religion/cults go they're probably no worse than others, certainly far less influential than say the Catholics.

The kind of people that Scientology attracts would probably be looking for answers in other cults, be that mainstream religion or alternative ones such as wicca, or even in the bottom of a bottle. Who is to say destroying their current method of finding happiness is the best thing for them?

I understand that posting the above sets me at odds with the majority of people who come here, but I'm not looking to wind people up I'm just interested in the views of anyone who wants a reasoned debate.

Hi there Anonodonkey, thought I'd have a go at answering your question.

I'm against scientology because of the lies / brainwashing / splitting up families / forced abortions / attempted government infiltration etc etc, not its belief system.

I think what sets Scientology apart from other 'religions' is that all of the above is intrinsic to the belief system, not as bad stuff done by individual members.

Yes the Catholic church has got a lot a bad history, but I think this bad stuff is not a part of the whole organisation. For instance, the Crusades: I've read a transcript of Pope Urban's sermon calling for the first crusade - its hatred, racial bigotry and bloodthirstiness is utterly at odds with the Bible and even Catholic doctrine. The Paedo priests thing is, again, very bad and handled very badly, being at odds with what the Bible teaches.

The whole belief system of Scientology is rooted in the written works of LRH. Those written works actually push forward a lot of bad stuff. To be a scientologist is to believe that LRH is right. To believe that LRH is right means doing all of the nasty stuff that goes on.

There's a lot I don't like about the Catholic church but they don't liesabout and harass critics. Also the Bible and Cathechism of the Catholic church are ready available (and may even be given free of charge) to anyone who wants to know more. There are no expensive, hidden doctrine for those who've paid enough.

What do you think?

Hey Anonodonkey, I'll bite too. You've raised an important question, and I have no doubt that plenty of anons ask themselves from time to time why they bother doing what they do. I can only speak for myself, since every anon seems to have their own reasons, and I firmly believe that all approaches, from the most moralfaggy to the most lulz-focused, have a place somewhere in the movement (just not too close to me).

Firstly, there's the moral side. You can compare the behaviours of scientology with any other religious organisation, and find much to complain about with any of them, especially if you look back into the past of the main Abrahamic faiths. But scientology's abuses are happening right now, under the explicit direction of their central organisations, with no apologies or reforms. The leaders seem to see themselves as above the law, untouchable behind their lawyers, their willing minions and and their glossy facade, and that's enough to piss a lot of people off.

You can also side-step the comparison entirely by just not accepting the claim the scientology is a religion, as I (and many of the governments of the world) do. You might ask what gives me the right to say what is and is not a religion, to say to someone that their faith is a sham. My reply would be that it's not only the right, but the responsibility of every person to look critically at organisations which claim to be working in the name of religion, and consider whether they have a decent claim to that status, or whether they're just using it as a vehicle to perpetuate a con-trick.

As for the people who drift innocently into scientology looking for help with the troubles in their lives, my view on them is coloured by the many ex-scientologists I've encountered, both during Chanology and before. Every one of them regrets being duped, and has come to see scientology as a scam, even those who found some of the technology helpful. If I compare, for example, the lapsed Catholics I've met, a lot of them will still defend Catholicism to the hilt, and regret that they can no longer find the time or the faith to be involved in it, but the ex-scis all seem to wish they'd never stumbled into an org in the first place. And on that basis, I think it's a small victory every time a person in need walks past the eager scilon recruiters, and goes instead to someone who can really help.

On a less moralfaggy note, there's a lot of fun to be had in criticising an organisation which is simply incapable of dealing with criticism. Any other organisation that calls itself a religion would, by this time, have tried to come to an understanding with us (or in the most extreme cases would simply have tried to kill us). Not Scientology. They come out with truly hilarious propaganda, make futile attempts to shut down protests, waste police time, fling trivial insults and miss the point in epic ways. And every time they do, we have a damn good laugh.

And then, of course, there's the raids themselves. I fully realise its not for everyone, but I fucking love it. Putting on a costume, playing some tunes, turning a carpark or a high street into a party for a few hours, it's cheap, easy and life-affirming. Anonymous is not your friend, but there's people I've met while raiding that I'd trust my bollocks to. And so I'll carry on, in Birmingham, London or wherever I find myself, because it's the right thing to do and because I love to do it.

Thanks both for your replies. I'll admit that earlier I thought my posting rights had been removed because I couldn't find a reply button anywhere. A PM to CarterUSP later and I'm told the site is running slow and the buttons are taking a while to load. Perhaps I should stop being paranoid!

Anyway on to the replies. I wouldn't claim that Scientology is perfect, to be honest I only know what I read a while ago when I first stumbled across Brumanon and some links that I was given at the time. Yes, there was some shocking stuff that I found out, but then again I found out some shocking stuff about Mother Theresa after she died. Point being that in any organisation you will find these kinds of stories that get you questioning the whole, instead of the individual instances.

Is Scientology totally without merit? Or is it a case of a currently corrupt leadership that is subverting the original aims for their own benefit, much like medieval Popes? Perhaps shutting down Scientology isn't the answer, but regime change is. My concern is that you see public face of Scientology as the people at the top, but the nature of how you protest is always to the people at the bottom, perhaps the least deserving of scorn.

Finally before I go I have to comment on something you posted Galanon, which was that all the ex-Scientologists you encounter they all regret their involvement. I suppose that's in the nature of being "ex" anything. It doesn't prove that others haven't been helped by Scientology, just that the ones you encountered didn't find what they were looking for.

Actually I have another finally, I could just go back and edit the other finally but I'm lazy. Galanon you start off by saying "I'll bite too", again I'm not looking to wind people up, just interested in debate.

Yo donkey!
You make a valid point that we should be careful with focusing our scorn at the wrong people. Most anons see the majority of the members of scientology as its victims, not its perpetrators. Staff members are cut off from the outside world as much as possible so that they can't see that they're being told blatant lies by their bosses. If all the statistics quoted in their worldwide video briefings were true then they would have practically already taken over the planet, rather than dwindling away in power and influence.
I think I speak for all of us when I say that I'd like everyone (whether general public or scientologists) to have access to both sides of the argument to decide for themselves.
The 'church' of scientology doesn't allow its members that luxury.

I'm pleased to say that I've never seen anons having a go at individual low level scilons. We do tend to wave though.